Trina Robbins is a celebrated writer, historian, activist, and cartoonist. Making her start in the underground comix scene, she has written for notable characters like Honey West, T.H.E. Cat, The Phantom, Captain Midnight, and Wonder Woman. She has also published extensively about the history of women cartoonist and recently compiled two volumes of the classic adventure strip Miss Fury for IDW. Her graphic novels for young readers include Lily Renee: Escape Artist, Bessie Coleman: Daring Stunt Pilot, Hedy Lamar and a Secret Communication System, and the Chicagoland Detective Agency series. Her most recent work is Pretty Ink: North American Women Cartoonists 1896-2013. She was inducted into the Will Eisner Hall of Fame in 2013. Trina and I contributed to a recent documentary film called Wonder Women: The Untold Story of American Superheroines and have been catching up after the Sacramento Wizard Comic Con. She is leaving tomorrow to curate a show at the Toonseum, but graciously made time to chat with me about some of the great lady spies and detectives, about reading Pulps as a kid, and about how changing gender roles have been reflected in pop culture.
Welcome Trina! I recently interviewed Win Scott Eckert about Honey West, so I'd like to start with that character. Honey West
debuted in September 1965. What are some of your early impressions of the show?
Had you read any of the Fickling novels?
I
had not read the novels until just before I started writing the comics, but I
loved the TV show. It was a bit campy,
just like the Batman show was campy, with all sorts of gadgets, but that was
the current style of adventure shows at the time. What impressed me was that for a change, it
was a woman fighting the bad guys,
and of course Anne Francis was superb. To me, she is Honey West.
It seemed that
most of the female roles in detective stories were reserved for femme fatales,
two-timers, and ancillary characters like secretaries. In what ways was Honey
West different?
She
was the crime fighter, the mystery solver. Despite having a very annoying partner who kept trying to tell her not
to do all that stuff, Honey was in control.
She didn’t need to be rescued by some guy.
When it came
time for you to write Honey West for Moonstone, what were some of the character
elements or story conventions you wanted to make sure to include?
I liked
the idea that the TV show came from the mid-1960s, and I decided to keep it
retro, so for my Honey, it’s any time between 1964 and 1966. I also loved Bruce the ocelot, who in my
opinion was the co-star of the show, along with Honey. I dumped the aunt and the boring partner, but
kept the cop, Lt Mark Storm, so there could be some unrelieved sexual
tension. He’s really in love with her,
but he’s old fashioned and believes a woman should not be a detective. She might love him too, if only he would
enter the 20th century.
Later, when I paired Honey with T.H.E. Cat, he joined the cop as
potential love interest.
The Emma Peel
episodes of The Avengers came to the US in March 1966 and the earlier episodes,
starring Honor Blackman as Cathy Gale, aired later in the US. Did you follow
the show?
Of
course! I adored them!
Cathy Gale and
Emma Peel really set the tone in the early 1960s for strong female action stars
(in leather) who were also renowned scholars and scientists. Together with
Honey West (and Barbara Bain on Mission Impossible), what did these role models
offer girls in the 1960s?
First
of all, the fashionista in me loved the cat suits. Other than that, they sure opened up the
field for girls. Instead of having to
choose between secretary, nurse, teacher, and stewardess, I could be a sexy
private eye!
Many female characters during the 1960s were still stuck in post-war suburban
stories about housewives and winning (and keeping) husbands. Even Wonder Woman
lost her powers to manage a clothing store and get missions from a man. Why do
you think characters like Emma Peel were so rare? In terms of liberation, was
the 60s expectation of “free love” really just about men maintaining power?
Characters
like Emma Peel were indeed rare (and English!), but they were the early
manifestations of a trend that would come into its own with the women’s
liberation movement of the late 60s and 70s. Interesting you should bring up the 60s expectation of “free love.” That had a lot to do with the Pill. It meant women could finally be sexually
active without fear of pregnancy, and that was a good thing, but unfortunately
for a lot of hippy men, it meant they didn’t have to take any responsibility in
a relationship. You see it in so many of
the songs that were popular then: “I love you, but babe, I gotta ramble.” I believe “free love” was a major cause of
the women’s liberation movement: I can sleep with you and have your babies and
cook the brown rice, but I can’t ask for any commitment from you, because you “gotta
ramble.”
It seems like
birth control in the 1920s, entering the workforce in the 1940s, and the pill
in the 1960s -leading to feminism in the 1970s- are benchmarks for powerful
female characters in pop culture. Each period seems to be followed by backlash
and reinforcement of male dominance. Where do you think our society is in the
spectrum right now?
There
are always forces that would like to send women back to the kitchen, and keep
them barefoot and pregnant. That will
never change. But as long as smart
people are willing to fight back, we will never go back. And very slowly, things do change. I remember back-alley abortions, nylon
stockings, looking for work in the “Women” section of the want ads (and of
course men doing the same job made more money). But the ERA has still not been passed!
Amazing the Equal Rights Amendment failed to receive ratification in 1982. Lindsay Wagner
said she didn’t want to portray the Bionic Woman as a “man in a skirt.” What do
you think she meant? Is pop culture filled with female characters based on a
male template of behavior?
Yes! All too often in mainstream superhero comics
the female characters are ultra violent and bloodthirsty, not to mention being
oversexed. These are male fantasies.
What was your
impression of the Barbarella movie? I’ve only seen a bit of the original comic,
which looks interesting.
I
loved it! Jane Fonda was at her most
Bardot-esque. But I fear if I watched it
today it might seem dated.
During the spy
boom in the mid-1960s, there were a few films that tried to spotlight strong
female characters: Fathom, Modesty Blaise, and Deadlier Than the Male. Did
these movies stand out for you?
I’m
afraid the only one I remember is Modesty
Blaise, which as you’ve probably guessed, was great. Obviously, before I ever heard the term
“women’s liberation,” I was attracted to Honey, Emma, Modesty, the women who
were beautiful and powerful and in control of their own lives.
Looking back
into your research into comic history, tell us something about the Miss Fury
comic strip. I’ve just ordered the two volumes from IDW and they really look
amazing- that cat suit is cool! What is the essence of her character? Is she an
Emma Peel or Honey West of the 1940s?
Yes,
speaking of cat suits! Unlike Emma or
Honey, who chose their lives and roles, Marla Drake (Miss Fury) kinda found her
role as a crime fighter accidentally, when she decided to wear her explorer
uncle’s panther skin to a costume party. This set off a chain of events that lasted almost 10 years, during which
Marla discovered just how strong she was. She grew from a rich and pretty society girl into a woman who was a
crack shot, who could hold her own in a catfight, who could shinny up buildings
and ropes when she needed to, and who could fly a plane!
Was Miss Fury ever adapted into a radio show or serial?
No. Too bad!
We both have a love for fashion, and you once put together a cool book about paper dolls from the comics. Did you discover these when you were little?
I always loved paper dolls, used to draw my own, and read Katy Keene comics. It wasn’t until much later that I realized there had been paper dolls in the newspaper strips. Tell me about your love for fashion!
I'm especially into Space-Age fashion by Cardin, Courreges, and Rabanne. You know, those playful mini dresses, space visors, boots, and PVC coats. So Fun! And the trim lines and geometric patterns in Mod fashion is great! I'm also into Flappers and Fred Astaire movies. I'll include some of my fashion post links down below. Was there a Miss Fury paper doll with cat suit? I could only find other outfits on-line.
No cat suits, though, but great high fashion wartime outfits. There were also Baroness Erica Von Kampf paperdolls.
I’ve read Miss Fury’s costume somehow took a psychic toll on her when she used its power. How was that established in the strip? Isn’t it unusual for a heroic character to experience this instant-karma as payment/sacrifice to their good deeds? The only equivalent that comes to mind is the Wiccan idea that every spell comes back to you threefold.
No no, you have it wrong! The panther skin was a gift from her uncle, a famous explorer, and it had belonged to a witch doctor and came with a curse on it for whoever wore it.
Interesting! Miss Fury has
been brought back in new comics by Dynamite: Miss Fury, Masks, and Noir. My
first impression, which is typical when faced with modern versions of ladies in
catsuits, is why do they have to make her hyper-sexualized and physically
exaggerated in a shiny tight suit? As Gloria Steinem wrote in an open letter to
Miley Cyrus, it perpetuates sexual availability-as-power as the only game in
town. That aside, do you think Miss Fury is holding up in the new books?
I completely agree with you! It breaks my heart to see what these gorillas have done to the wonderful Miss Fury. No, she is not “holding up” in these badly written and badly drawn new books, and my Miss Fury and the REAL Miss Fury will always be the original Tarpe Mills’ Miss Fury. Trina, what do you think male writers usually get wrong when they try to write strong heroines?
I completely agree with you! It breaks my heart to see what these gorillas have done to the wonderful Miss Fury. No, she is not “holding up” in these badly written and badly drawn new books, and my Miss Fury and the REAL Miss Fury will always be the original Tarpe Mills’ Miss Fury. Trina, what do you think male writers usually get wrong when they try to write strong heroines?
It isn’t so much the writer as the artist. How can a woman be strong and in control when her back is broken or in real life the weight of her breasts would make her fall forward onto her face? And let’s not talk about running in high heels!
Another
classic strip I look forward to reading is Phantom Lady. Her 'ray' seems like a cool gadget. What is the vibe of
that comic? How does it compare to Miss Fury?
I
like Phantom Lady, and Matt Baker
could draw beautiful girls better than anybody!
The stories were simpler because they were only 6 to 8 pages long in
comic book format, whereas Tarpe Mills had almost 10 years to develop her
characters and her storyline.
Are there other
detective or spy comics you would recommend with female leads?
Well,
I’m particularly fond of the 1940s and 1950s Brenda Starr strips. She’s
not a detective or a spy, but girl reporters can wind up in some harrowing
situations! Brenda is forever having
adventures, and she gets herself out of trouble most of the time.
Lois Lane has
been described as more heroic than Superman because she dives into danger in
pursuit of the truth, knowing she is mortal.
Lois
has become a stronger character today, but in the early days of Superman, she was an annoying pain in
the neck who always had to be rescued by Superman.
Trina contributed an appreciation to the Brenda Starr collection below by Hermes Press. Hermes has also published collections of The Phantom, Roy Rogers, Buck Rogers, Terry and Pirates, Johnny Hazard, and many Gold Key comic reprint editions.
Trina contributed an appreciation to the Brenda Starr collection below by Hermes Press. Hermes has also published collections of The Phantom, Roy Rogers, Buck Rogers, Terry and Pirates, Johnny Hazard, and many Gold Key comic reprint editions.
I’ve heard that
you were a big Sci-Fi fan as a kid. Were there ways to connect with other fans
then? And did you ever “Cosplay” your favorite characters?
I
had 2 best friends David, who was 14, and Marty who was 15. Just like with superhero comics, there
weren’t yet many girls reading Sci-Fi. We used to hang out in David’s finished basement, making up stories and
talking about books we had read. There
was no cosplay yet!
Did you listen
to radio shows as a kid? I love listening to them now, truly the “theater of
the mind.” It seems that shows made the experiences more interactive by keeping
up the suspense from episode to episode, and by marketing things like decoder
rings.
I
definitely listened to radio shows: Captain Midnight, Superman, and Tom
Mix. Loved them!
Agatha Christie
is the best-selling author of all-time. Were you mostly a Sci-Fi reader, or did
you also get into mysteries?
I
loved Agatha Christie and Ngaio March, got all their books out of the library
when I was in high school.
Did you collect
pulps or comics growing up? What were some of your favorite titles?
OMG,
yes! Before I went to high school, I
read almost all comics books with girl or women heroines, like Wonder Woman, Mary Marvel, or Sheena, Queen
of the Jungle. When I hit high
school, my schoolteacher mother told me that now I was a teenager and comics
were kid stuff, and she talked me into giving my collection away to the neighborhood
kids. But then I discovered science
fiction, and soon was reading all the sci-fi pulp mags like Thrilling Wonder Stories, Startling Stories, etc. They featured letter columns, so I sent a
letter to one of them, which they printed, saying I was a 14 year old girl who
would like to meet other kids who read Sci-Fi, and that’s how I met David and
Marty.
Here are some images you might enjoy from the Pulps and early comics. Talk about strong independent heroines!
Here are some images you might enjoy from the Pulps and early comics. Talk about strong independent heroines!
Tell me about
your series Chicagoland Detective Agency. Are you bringing in elements from the
Pulps to new readers?
The
themes in my series for young readers are all supernatural: I have mad
scientists, mummies, aliens, werewolves, ghosts, and witches. It’s not necessarily pulpy; just fun.
Speaking of
Pulps, you have written The Phantom for one of Moonstone’s anthologies. Did you
follow Lee Falk’s strips as a kid?
It
was fun writing my Phantom story in the style of a Depression era pulp
mag. But no, I didn’t follow The Phantom. I don’t even know what newspaper ran it.
Are there other
Pulp characters you would enjoy writing?
I’ve
already written Captain Midnight, and I also wrote a Honey West short story
that hasn’t come out yet. I dunno. I’m open.
Comic books
have a natural rhythm of suspense because they are serialized like those penny
dreadfuls and cliffhangers of the past. Is writing different for you when
working in a complete graphic novel form?
I
enjoy writing both. I like graphic novels where I have the space to tell an
entire story, but I have been enjoying writing my 2-part Honey Wests in which
part 1 ends with a cliffhanger.
You have compiled some amazing artwork for
projects like Miss Fury. Do you collect vintage comic books, strips, or
original artwork? Does collecting play a part in the process of writing your
books?
Of course I collect vintage comic
books and original art! I have the largest collection in the world of
comic art by early 20th Century women cartoonists. Currently, parts of my
collection are being exhibited at Toonseum in Pittsburgh, the main branch of
the SF public library in San Francisco, and soon to go up on exhibit at the San
Francisco Cartoon Art Museum (April 27th).
I’m a huge fan
of Richard Sala. His books are filled with strong women and fun elements from
old mystery/adventure comics and serials. In one of my interviews wit him, he
even shared some photos he got as a kid from Diana Rigg and Patrick Macnee (The
Avengers). Have you had a chance to follow Richard’s work?
I’m
sorry to say that I haven’t read Richard Sala’s comics, but now I know that I
must.
Check out “Peculia”
and “The Chuckling Whatsit” (above) by Richard. His work tends to have an Emma Peel meets macabre
mystery vibe! Now, we must look briefly at Wonder Woman. Below is a
It was such a
pleasure to contribute to the new Wonder Woman documentary with you. I hope
everyone sees it! I think it could be a step for some people toward seeing the
dominant male paradigm and what it means for female role models. What was
important for you to address or cover when you wrote your various Wonder Woman
comics?
I
really just wanted to tell a good story with the Wonder Woman I loved, who was
much closer to the original Golden Age Wonder
Woman than what DC had been printing at the time.
Maybe I get my
sense of Wonder Woman from Lynda Carter’s TV portrayal, but her essence seems
to about honor, justice, and compassion.
Just
like Anne Francis WAS Honey West, Lynda Carter WAS Wonder Woman! All us feminists watched her show. I remember speaking about the new show with
my dentist who was a woman (still a rarity then) and we were laughing and
agreeing that we both loved it. She
said, “Then why are we laughing?” I
thought maybe it was a combination of us being so happy about the show, but
also a little embarrassed that we grown women were so excited about a comic
character.
Below are some press images from Wonder Women: The Untold Story of American Superheroines. Trina is featured in the film, along with Gloria Steinem and Lynda Carter (pictured here).
Looking at a character really marketed to girls, were you able
to bring new depth to Matell’s BARBIE when you wrote a comic for Marvel in the
90s?
Those
Barbie comics were pretty amazing. Drawn by 4 women whom I used to call “the
Barbie Four” (Mary Wilshire, Anna Maria Cool, Amanda Conner, and Barb Rausch),
written by 3 women, of which I was one, and also inker, and with a woman
editor, Hildy Mesnick. And the stories
were never of the “Oh, let’s go shopping!” or “Math is hard” variety. Of
course the stories were simple, it was for little girls, but we tackled
subjects like deafness, anorexia, other serious stuff, all the while making our
stories fun to read. Mattel was a pain in the neck, because they had to approve
all the scripts, and they were clueless suits. So once I proposed a story in
which Skipper dreamed she was a pirate queen, and they rejected it, saying
“little girls don’t care about pirates”!!! Oh, yeah? Another time I proposed a
story where Barbie and her friends have a fashion show to benefit endangered
species. And they said “No politics”!!! Endangered species is politics?!? So I had to change it to a fashion show to
benefit the zoo.
Speaking of little girls, I ran into
Denis Kitchen and his daughter Alexa many years back at a NCS dinner when I was
writing my Mort Walker book. Alexa was making these cute buttons with her
comics, and has since published Drawing Comics is Easy! (Except When it’s Hard). Did you get to see this cute book?
I
haven’t seen it. It’s now on my list of
books to check out.
It's really cute- and helpful! My cartooning students like it. Congrats on
your new book, Pretty in Ink. My readers are interested in mysteries,
detectives, and espionage, though I’d hope they are curious to read many
genres. What are some highlights in the book that may appeal? You have
uncovered some real life stories, too, that sound interesting.
Well,
of course one of the most interesting (out of many!) is the story of Lily
Renee, who drew gorgeous adventure strips, most starring beautiful heroines,
for Fiction House comics during WWII. Her life was right out of a comic book. She
was a Jewish teenager in Vienna in 1938 when the Nazis marched in, and she
escaped to England the following year, had many adventures, finally winding up
in NY, drawing for Fiction House. My favorite of her strips is Senorita Rio, about a Brazilian actress
and nightclub entertainer who was really a spy for the secret service. So I
wrote a graphic novel about her, called Lily
Renee, Escape artist. Check it out, it’s aimed at kids but grownups like it
too.
In your praise
for Lily Renee, you’ve mentioned Fiction House was turning out great material
in the 1940s that included “jungle girls, girl reporters and aviatrixes and
girl detectives and girl spies.” Were
these reoccurring characters? Who were those cool ladies?
Yes,
these were recurring characters, and during the war, most of them were drawn by
women. Fran Hopper drew Glory Forbes, a
girl detective; Mysta of the Moon, a goddess-like woman who lived on the moon,
Jane Martin, a Nazi-fighting aviatrix/nurse, and Camilla, a jungle queen. Marcia Snyder also drew Camilla, and probably
others but I don’t know which they were. Lily Renee drew Senorita Rio, along with Jane Martin, and other comics
like Werewolf Hunter (see below) and Lost World.
Lilly did “Werewolf Hunter” under the pseudonym Armand Broussard. From what
I’ve seen on-line, it looks like the scope of the stories included supernatural
and anti-Nazi themes?
All
the comics were credited to house pseudonyms, but the artists also signed their
work, so although Werewolf Hunter says it’s by Armand Broussard, it’s signed
“L. Renee.” Yes, these were stories of
the supernatural, and often the evil forces are thinly disguised Nazis.
We’ve talked
about many of the great female action figures, from Emma Peel to Honey West and
Miss Fury. If you could invite one of these characters to lunch, who would it
be?
What
I’d really like to do is go to lunch with Tarpe Mills (pictured below)!
Lastly, if you
were an international spy or diabolical mastermind, what would your secret lair
be?
A
nice little house close to the water in Hawaii.
Thank you,
Trina. It’s a great pleasure chatting with you! Have fun at the Toonseum
exhibit and comic convention this week. Related posts below.
Related posts: Catsuits, Spy Vibe's image archives on Pinterst here, Batman '66 Interview, Cold War Comics, Win Scott Eckert Honey West Interview, Shane Glines Interview, William Maynard Fu Manchu Interview, Richard Sala Interview, Mod Tales Interview, Kinky Boots, Peeling Off the Trenchcoats, Mods to Moongirls, Batman '66 and Andy Warhol, Spies: the World Around Us, Man From UNCLE pages, Six Million Dollar Man records and toys, SHIELD Artist Editions, Solar and Bionic Man Return.
Related posts: Catsuits, Spy Vibe's image archives on Pinterst here, Batman '66 Interview, Cold War Comics, Win Scott Eckert Honey West Interview, Shane Glines Interview, William Maynard Fu Manchu Interview, Richard Sala Interview, Mod Tales Interview, Kinky Boots, Peeling Off the Trenchcoats, Mods to Moongirls, Batman '66 and Andy Warhol, Spies: the World Around Us, Man From UNCLE pages, Six Million Dollar Man records and toys, SHIELD Artist Editions, Solar and Bionic Man Return.
Recent Ian Fleming posts on Spy Vibe: Ian Fleming Letters, Erno Goldfinger, Ian Fleming Music Series links: Noel Coward, Whispering Jack Smith, Hawaiian Guitar, Joe Fingers Carr, new Ian Fleming Catalog, Jon Gilbert interview, Double 007 Designs, Bond audio book reissues, discovery of one of Ian Fleming's WWII Commandos, James Bond book covers, Ian Fleming's Playboy interview for Kindle, Spy Vibe's discovery of a rare Ian Fleming serialization, rare View to a Kill, Fleming's Royal gold typewriter, Ian Fleming's memorial address, Spy Vibe's Ian Fleming image archive.